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okay OT 3 iideas
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me G I've
had many jobs laborer Tire production
political organizer Aid worker Member of
Parliament writer broadcaster but the
one job I would have loved and can never
have is Kremlin advisor our first guest
is that or rather was and more and he's
here to talk about the Ukraine as the
gears crash upwards towards what could
end up as a fullscale European War if
last week's agreement doesn't stand he's
Alexander necrosoft and he joins us now
Alexander the ceasefire comes into
effect tomorrow the Minsk agreement this
week uh has some similarities to
previous agreements some differences
tell the viewers please how you see the
agreement and whether you think it's
going to stick well it is different from
the one we had in September last year
and I think the difference is that I
think that both sides are seem to be
more serious about the end result I
think there is a certain will has
appeared uh after these um long
discussions U this week and I think that
what we are witnessing here is that both
Kev and the anti-government forces they
are prepared to give this a chance now
having said that and I always welcome by
the way when politicians meet and talk
uh even if they don't sometimes
understand each other don't want to
understand each other uh I think that
the most important thing the most
important thing lacking in this document
in this agreement is that the Promise by
the West not to drag Ukraine into NATO I
think the main reason for this crisis
developing and spreading is because
there is a perception in Russia and in
eastern Ukraine as well that America and
the EUR European Union want Ukraine to
become a full-blown me NATO member now
parena and his lot in Kev have been
making all sorts of noises basically
saying it's time for Ukraine to join
NATO that's a bad thing that creates
problems that creates problems in all
respects and that actually makes Russia
think that there there's a game behind
everything that penko says and does
there's also a perception in Moscow in
the Kremlin itself that penko is a war
president that he is there to actually
conduct war that he basically his future
depends on that war if that stops his
position becomes weak and he might fall
so that is where this perception has to
change penka has to prove to Russia that
he is not a war president that he's the
president as he says himself of all
Ukraine now we need to see that proved
by actions not just you know words said
today this and tomorrow this well he's
not much of a war president because his
army has pretty comprehensively lost the
war against coal miners Factory workers
uh ordinary civilians who couldn't put
up with the situation anymore how do you
account for the well feeble performance
of his forces is it lack of morale or
what well I think there's a lot of uh
problems that they have there first of
all of course there's their cause is not
just a just course I think a lot of
people a lot of soldiers and officers in
the Ukrainian Army do not want to kill
their own people you know any army is
very reluctant to go against its own
people now also we have those so-called
battalions funded by those oligarchs who
want the war to go on because they are
making money out of that war these
battalions obviously are hardened
Killers but they're not really
professional fighters are they and I
don't think that they can put up a
serious fight and when they encounter
the sort of resistance when which they
encounter in the East I think they
they've never they've never really
thought that you know those former
yesterday's miners C drivers and so on
would fight like you know like so
courageously and and die for the for
their people and for their country I
think the biggest mistake the west and
the new regime in Kev made was to
alienate the East this was huge mistake
this was such a huge miscalculation that
they're paying for it even now and I
think that the people in the west are
gradually starting to realize well I
wonder uh and that's uh I think uh an
unanswered question from Minsk does this
represent any kind of fure between the
European Union particularly Germany and
France and the United States isn't it
the case that the United States is quite
happy with the War uh wants to confront
Russia but the German and French
leadership do not well I I think
personally that the reason why Merkel
and Anand suddenly rushed to Moscow and
all over the place is because there is a
real realization in Western Europe in
Brussels as well that this war can get
out of control that this war can spread
to Europe I think this is the only
reason why suddenly we had this surge of
diplomatic activity I think also Merkel
and other leaders realized that Obama
might not be bluffing with his idea of
arming yeah the Ukrainian army with
heavy weapon now first of all you have
to be very naive to think that NATO is
not already supplying the Ukrainian Army
we have seen on Russian television
examples of the weapons heavy machine
guns ammo e even light armored vehicles
and tanks and so on coming from the West
okay there might be third parties but
they're still there uh the Ukrainian
Army would not have been able to fight
for so long without supplies so it's a
bit of a hypocritical maneuver here on
the part of Obama and his administration
to pretend that they're not supplying
they are supplying already they're
probably now talking about heavy
Weaponry now I would think that um I'm
guessing here but Obama's advisor are
telling him and Obama is not a strong
president when it comes to foreign
policy he's a novice and Obama's
advisers who are probably influenced by
all sorts of people um in Wall Street
and so on are saying to him we have to
keep the pressure on Russia and which
means of course continuing with the war
and sanctions and the sanctions and
that's why the Europeans don't want that
because they are suffering because
whatever Mr Cameron is saying or Merkel
or orand or others they are suffering
they are losing money and Greece I think
there interesting part on the Greece
gree's government is saying look this is
hurting Europe they're open now they're
openly talking about it and I think that
Europeans Now understand that Americans
don't want to understand they don't care
about Europe and this is I think this
wedge Putin is now driving it wider I
think that's quite clever of him and
that is why I hope that pressure in
Europe on their politicians would would
lead to this agreement at least you know
all the sides trying to make it work
unlike the previous one the previous one
didn't work from day one no you know
they started firing prac the next day
this time there's a certain change of
mood I feel it at least one of the uh
Tendencies of Western media outfits is
to start the clock ticking on a story
when their cameras arrive and when it
suits their narrative to start the story
news Knight told the truth this week
about the provocation the massacre of
people in the maidan which in a way was
the beginning of this story they showed
in a remarkable film that the official
story that it was the then Ukrainian
government who conducted this massacre
is completely
untrue and they provided the evidence
which proved as was suspected by some of
us at the time though we were ridiculed
as conspiracy theorists that this was a
deliberate provocation to
internationalize this story and to
provide the moment
behind the Keta which then uh then
occurred is this widely known in Russia
does everyone in
Russia disbelieve the West's narrative
or is there as it were an opposition
ramp inside Russia that blames President
Putin for the current impass well the
majority of Russians
obviously uh believe that the opposition
during those um days of protests was
responsible for what happened in Kev for
the Bloodshed because Russian media was
there on the ground it's very difficult
to to say to people oh look you know it
was a you know yanukovich's people
starting all this horrible killings when
there is footage of it they they they
showed it I mean Russia Today their
journalists were there on the ground I
think they got many awards for that
because it was actually a brilliant very
dangerous brilant assignment
you know reporting on their part so for
the Russians it's no big deal to be
honest it's maybe you know news night
here saying this is remarkable although
I would say it's just scking the books
you know balanced coverage where you
have 90% or even more of the coverage
very sort of biased and very
anti-russian and then occasionally they
do invite even me for example you know
sometimes on the shows and I say say
things that I I say to you now
so I think they TI that box balanced
coverage because um it's so blatantly
anti-russian that I think that now they
realize no one's exploiting it in Russia
is is President Putin's position still
very strong in the country I think
president position President Putin's
Position will be strong for quite some
time because the biggest mistake the
West has made is to try to interfere in
Ukraine and on the border with Russia
you know after the Russians saw those
footages of the dead children dead women
you know on the streets and so on of
danet and lugansk and others there's
nothing you can do now to change their
minds it's very difficult I think we had
a Fascination in Russia in the yelson
Years with the West unfortunately I
would say so we could steal Russia's
things well yes so that the trillions
would flow into into the West Banks but
um I think now this Fascination even
amongst the Liberals you know Russian
liberal they're very opposed to
everything Putin says and does I think
it's changing now it's going the young
were very you know excited about all
Western values Western Cinema Western
culture western music it's changing now
because suddenly they realized oh no the
West is has its agendas and Ukraine was
a big mistake huge mistake I think
they've misjudged it I I sometimes
wonder what sort of advisors do they
have you know in London Paris Berlin
Washington what do they say to their
bosses don't they realize that this is a
dangerous game they're playing don't
they realize that it will hit them back
not the advisers of course but the
countries well as I always put it don't
think our countries are run by James
Bonds they're more Austin Powers
Alexander wonderful thanks very much for
coming on board the Sputnik coming up
after the break a legend in my lifetime
he's a revolutionary a rockar are a
writer and a right big fan of RT he's
Robert Wyatt and he's up next on the
Sputnik welcome back to Sputnik from the
1960s until now Robert Wyatt is a
Vindication of John Lennon's observation
that a workingclass hero is something to
be with soft machine as a solo artist
and as a collaborator with the likes of
Elvis Costello he helped transform the
British music scene but just as
importantly he's clung all his life to
the need for a still greater
transformation that of society as a
whole he has remained a rare thing I'm
sure amongst the top flight of rock
stars a Marxist who had his shoulder to
the wheel in many Great British
struggles not the least of them the
minor strike 30 years ago he's young
gifted and he's back with just last
month an authorized biography of Robert
Wyatt by Marcus odir the book has
stormed the FedEd corridors of the BBC
as radio 4's book of the week and Robert
Wyatt joins us now on board the Sputnik
let's talk about the book first of all I
know Robert you didn't write it you have
no stake in it but it really is doing
well it's getting critical Acclaim of
the kind perhaps for the last few years
you haven't had tell us about it okay a
young man called Marcus o there I
extraordinarily young but then I'm maybe
extraordinarily old came up and said can
I write a book about you and I thought
well yeah you know it's free country go
ahead so uh uh he I didn't know what he
was going to do this about five years
ago but anyway he went away and he did
an amazing amount of homework
interviewed us a few times I think I'm
so pleased he he really made all effort
to understand the songs and the music
I've been doing a real effort and cross
referencing you know what I was singing
about I'm very grateful to
well we we'll talk about your music
career in a minute but um what makes you
particularly interesting to me is the
fact that uh you are someone who's been
steadfast in your political ideals I
myself have never lost the faith uh that
I have had all since a teenage years
were there any moments when you were
tempted to lose your socialist Faith uh
no you've been I mean the thing is I
came to it late uh I noticed uh I mean I
think you jumped into it feet first I
mean from your background it was you
know that's that's the way to go I I
came from a rather vague sort of uh
background mostly brought up uh as a
sort of I don't know Christian liberal
labor voting music person art person and
it wasn't really till the mid '70s and
particularly when I met my wife Alie
who's very well read politically
uh but then in the mid-70s anyway that I
started to get concerned and it's like
you don't miss stuff till it's gone and
I did notice that uh that the that the
gains made by the labor party that my
parents had voted for when I was born in
45 at the end of the war they were born
with a lot of hope you know about you
know a land fit for Heroes free health
free National Health all this stuff and
that it was sort of being dismembered
and sneered at as kind of an acronis and
I started to panic thought whoa wait a
minute so the Paradox is I'm a sort of
in that sense I'm a socialist
conservative I I don't I don't like this
right-wing Revolution I'm reaction I
really like when everything sacred is
profaned
Sol I just didn't like it and I was a
great analysis I just thought I don't
like these people who were taking over
you know it was not just the tourist but
I didn't really like you know that came
in after har W I just didn't like any of
it and uh then I I so I felt I was
pushed to what they call you know the
hard left because uh I thought that the
the C What's called the center ground
was kind of vacuous spineless chinless
and uh insult to the idea of pluralism
really I thought there must be another
way of looking at this and um and to my
surprise I found myself uh drawn to the
Morning Star newspaper and that sort of
those sort of people and drawn into the
various um and it's still going as as we
are as we are let's go back to the
beginning of the the musical scene who
knew that in a town like Canterbury uh
such a uh M A Music Factory was
developing a bit like Detroit and uh and
uh other scenes that have uh developed
well no not if you've seen Detroit
recently it's a very depressed uh Place
tell us about the Canterbury scene what
was in the water water in Canterbury at
the time that you and others were coming
forward yeah okay well a lot of us at
the school where I was uh were Jazz fans
cuz I spent the 1950s at school
basically from the age of about five to
about about 15 16 I left earlier than
most of my friends I wasn't very
academic but uh while I was there we we
uh we listened to Jazz it's what we
listened to and I suppose the seeds of
both the ideas and the uh politics come
from that because it turned out that
most of the Jazz I likeed was by what
are now African-American musicians and
uh they became Our Heroes and uh so as
the years went on and I saw more what
was going on in the world I couldn't
reconcile the status of uh African
people of people of African origin
politically in the world with the fact
that they were if anything the
aristocracy of culture as far as I was
concerned uh and
I so it was trying to square that Circle
that got me drawn more and more into
politics it came to a head when working
in the early 70s with uh a few South
African Exiles Chris McGregor but uh a
trumpet player c a trumpet player called
Moni faser who I worked with was the
same age as me and died in hospital in
England when I was about 30 I say same
age of me in a way that was quite
unnecessary and I was so so cross about
that that I just that I just got stuck
into the anti-apartheid struggle and
then that could have led
to that connotation that to associated
with all the others you know Palestine
and so on we have failed at many things
in this country uh we once were great as
an industrial power and now are not but
culturally we have
maintained uh a tremendous output to
what do you account for
that well
um I think that one of the things
happened after the second world war this
is retrospective understanding I mean I
didn't I was I was just too busy doing
it at the time uh there was a thing that
happened which there again took for
granted at the time who didn't rise was
rather shortlived which was simply that
the labor idea was that workingclass
people should be allowed the same access
to education and opportunity at least as
everybody else which of course meant
necess necessarily free education and it
lots of working class kids went into art
colleges and you'll find that a lot of
rock bands people actually people
clearing John lenon of course Pete
Townson uh were art college people and
it's funny that it wasn't the music
colleges which was still quite elitist
at the time but the art colleges and I
thing about the art col is where kids
who weren't very academic could express
themselves and it turned out that that
they would do painting but a lot of them
wanted to be in beat groups and uh at
that time people like the Beatles and so
on they all picking up on uh rhythm and
blues in America as an alternative to
the more sacker in pop stuff and that
seen the way to go and we started out
they don't now so much play for dancers
so it's very good playing for dancers
cuz it's not about M me
self-expression it's about it's like
more like being a cook in a restaurant
you're trying to serve the the people
and if you don't get the beat right they
won't dance you know they and so if you
do get it right and they do dance you're
doing your job you know and I love the
feeling of that and I recommend it to
any musician starting out don't go
around what being I want to express the
great me do some work playing for people
in in pubs and clubs you know it's good
for you speaking of Pops I understand
that you've become a verb now waiting
when you randomly put different tracks
together in a pub I can see how that
happened makes my misses very cross
though cuz I'm very polite like that I'm
not sound paradoxical I'm not actually a
troublemaker if I lived in a trouble
free world I wouldn't make it you know
uh but I wouldn't want to upset a Pub
full of people if they're playing Pop
records so uh I would never Wyatt myself
I just want to go back to um how Jazz
inspired you at the time and how you how
that entwined with politics and
political movement how do you see
today's jazz music uh and it's link to
to political motivation and if I may add
uh we had Gad
Atman few weeks ago was very intwined
with this it comes from the most
unlikely places you in Canterbury him in
Tel Aviv even more unlikely look gillad
i' I've been lucky enough to have gillad
on the most of the records I've done
this century three or four uh three or
four CDs three or four the ones I'm most
happy with and he's great to work with
in the studio you can't stop him you
know get in there he said what you want
on here Claret said do you want a b a
saxville do you want a b a ten yeah okay
he just works he loves to play amazing
musician he's got an energy bling and
it's all content it's not just you know
so Gill yeah so how do people get I mean
you and Canterbury him and Tel Aviv how
do you come to Jazz well in his case he
heard I think some Charlie Parker
records when he was a boy and uh just
thought these are my people and it's
very funny
and uh he sort of translated that into
his own circumstance but in my case uh
it was simply that in fact around 1960
about 10 years before the a lot of white
stuff came up really early there was
some very militant black uh as it was
then called American music jazz people
like Max Roach who did a incredible
record called we insist Freedom now
suddenly rolling a saxophone player
who's still playing uh did the freedom
suite at Charles mingz was playing fa
was a forus against uh American people
who weren't stopping integration and so
on and so I was actually politicized by
those musicians and another thing that
happened alongside that was that black
Americans a lot of them uh the musicians
started uh giving themselves well became
Islam Muslims and we everyone knows
about Muhammad Ali from cassus clay he
said I'm not Greek that's I call myself
mam Ali but then there um there whole
kind of people a
saxophonist some my favorite the book
called Yousef Latif even the great
drummer art Blakey Chang his name to
Abdul Al bu it was they all doing at
shahib seab these are all names of
African-American CH TRS at that time
Robert Wyatt you certainly ain't stolen
at 70 still going strong thanks for
coming on board this thank very much for
having me thank
you and now it's your turn to tell us
what you think through the portals of
social media what's rattling guys
well about the Ukraine Rea amra says
that the foundation for World War III is
being laid and so it got me thinking is
the Ukraine a Kosovo or a Syria waiting
to happen Evelyn brunwick says that
Syria is also all about Russia if Syria
Falls Russia loses last Western base
surrounded and isolated Cold War well I
don't think Russia's uh particularly
isolated right now it has a Nextdoor
friend forget what it's called oh China
China it's called okay all right well
let's all we out for this week which
alas means that's the end of the show
you can stay in touch with us on Twitter
at rtor Sputnik and on Facebook Sputnik
on Russia today it's goodbye for me G
and from me George Gallow it's been
marvelous
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